Saturday, January 19, 2013

True 10 Commandments, Slavery was Condemned, and Sexually looking at a woman is not a sin

After studying and finding that Matthew 5:27-28 Actually Says, "You have heard that it was said, ‘Do not commit adultery.’ But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman in order to covet her has already committed adultery with her in his heart."

In reference to The 10 Commandments in which the Septuagint Exodus 20:17 uses the same word( epithume√≥) in Jesus Christ did in Matthew 5:27-28, which means He referred to The 10th Commandment and Never changed the law and looking at a woman isn't a sin.


Courtesy Jason Staples - http://www.jasonstaples.com/blog/2009/most-misinterpreted-bible-passages-1-matthew-527-28-18 


and that Covet aka Hebrew Chamad can mean take in The Tenth Commandment of the 10th Commandment


And since Deuteronomy 5:21 has Hebrew Avah which means desire AFTER Chamad(so most likely 2 different meanings, otherwise I would assume different words would be used)


and Since ganab in Thou Shall Not Steal 8th Commandment can mean kidnap


And since Exodus 21-22 is an explanation of the law which never mentions having a desire for another's property as sin, but actually taking ones property, and mentions Kidnapping(and the penalty for it is death)


It comes to me as a conclusion that these are The Real Ten Commandments:



1, You shall have no other gods before Yahweh(The True God, The Trinity of The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit)
2, You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below.
3, Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy
4, You shall not misuse the name of the Lord your God, for the Lord will not hold anyone guiltless who misuses his name.
5, Honor your father and your mother, so that you may live long in the land the Lord your God is giving you.
6, You shall not murder.
7, You shall not commit adultery.
8, You shall not Kidnap
9, You shall not give false testimony against your neighbor.
10, “You shall not take(steal) your neighbor’s house. You shall not take(steal) your neighbor’s wife, or his male or female servant, his ox or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor.”

And this has alot of implications,
#1 The Bible/God(The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit) NEVER condoned slavery
#2 looking at a woman or desiring any woman(not of your relatives of course) isn't sin, it is sin to want to steal another woman
#3 Jesus Christ Commandments never condemned any unintentional feelings as sin(looking a woman, wishing you had what another did(modern day covet definition) but condemned doing evil, stealing, wrong anger, and greed.

Therefore whoever says desiring a woman, looking at a woman, or desiring a woman sexually adds to The Law of God(The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit)
Whoever says The Bible condones slavery is a liar, as forced slavery is a form of kidnap.

Saturday, January 12, 2013

Consciousness Requires Free Will

Simply put, when you are conscious, whether you make decisions or not, whether you do something doesn't matter. the fact that you are aware and can examine and understand and etc is all Free Will.

Without Free Will you cannot be conscious.

Wednesday, January 2, 2013

Penal Substitution False Doctrine Series #1: Jeremiah 31 refutes Penal Substitution Atonement

The Post about proving Pre-Martial Sex isn't a sin will be postponed as this has come to mind,

Alot of Penal Substitutionary Atonement advocates site The Old Testament's Sacrifice system or misinterpret what Paul(By The Power of The Holy Spirit said) wrote in his letters.

Today the first in the series of refuting penal substitutionary atonement entitled, Penal Substitution False Doctrine Series, we will use  Jeremiah 31 to prove

No one can pay for anothers sin(s), or People could pay for another(s0 sin but under The New Covenant.

 As a Bonus we further prove that Jesus Christ is God.

Lets analyze,

Using The New International Version, King James Version has some benefits but gives me a headache.

My commentary in Blue,



Jeremiah 31

New International Version (NIV)
31 “At that time,” declares the Lord, “I will be the God of all the families of Israel, and they will be my people.”
This is what the Lord says:
“The people who survive the sword
    will find favor in the wilderness;
    I will come to give rest to Israel.”
The Lord appeared to us in the past,[a] saying:
“I have loved you with an everlasting love;
    I have drawn you with unfailing kindness.
I will build you up again,
    and you, Virgin Israel, will be rebuilt.
Again you will take up your timbrels
    and go out to dance with the joyful.
Again you will plant vineyards
    on the hills of Samaria;
the farmers will plant them
    and enjoy their fruit.
There will be a day when watchmen cry out
    on the hills of Ephraim,
‘Come, let us go up to Zion,
    to the Lord our God.’”
This is what the Lord says:
“Sing with joy for Jacob;
    shout for the foremost of the nations.
Make your praises heard, and say,
    Lord, save your people,
    the remnant of Israel.’
See, I will bring them from the land of the north
    and gather them from the ends of the earth.
Among them will be the blind and the lame,
    expectant mothers and women in labor;
    a great throng will return.
They will come with weeping;
    they will pray as I bring them back.
I will lead them beside streams of water
    on a level path where they will not stumble,
because I am Israel’s father,
    and Ephraim is my firstborn son.
10 “Hear the word of the Lord, you nations;
    proclaim it in distant coastlands:
‘He who scattered Israel will gather them
    and will watch over his flock like a shepherd.’
11 For the Lord will deliver Jacob
    and redeem them from the hand of those stronger than they.
12 They will come and shout for joy on the heights of Zion;
    they will rejoice in the bounty of the Lord
the grain, the new wine and the olive oil,
    the young of the flocks and herds.
They will be like a well-watered garden,
    and they will sorrow no more.
13 Then young women will dance and be glad,
    young men and old as well.
I will turn their mourning into gladness;
    I will give them comfort and joy instead of sorrow.
14 I will satisfy the priests with abundance,
    and my people will be filled with my bounty,
declares the Lord.
15 This is what the Lord says:
“A voice is heard in Ramah,
    mourning and great weeping,
Rachel weeping for her children
    and refusing to be comforted,
    because they are no more.”
16 This is what the Lord says:
“Restrain your voice from weeping
    and your eyes from tears,
for your work will be rewarded,
declares the Lord.
    “They will return from the land of the enemy.
17 So there is hope for your descendants,”
declares the Lord.
    “Your children will return to their own land.
18 “I have surely heard Ephraim’s moaning:
    ‘You disciplined me like an unruly calf,
    and I have been disciplined.
Restore me, and I will return,
    because you are the Lord my God.
19 After I strayed,
    I repented;
after I came to understand,
    I beat my breast.
I was ashamed and humiliated
    because I bore the disgrace of my youth.’
20 Is not Ephraim my dear son,
    the child in whom I delight?
Though I often speak against him,
    I still remember him.
Therefore my heart yearns for him;
    I have great compassion for him,”
declares the Lord.
21 “Set up road signs;
    put up guideposts.
Take note of the highway,
    the road that you take.
Return, Virgin Israel,
    return to your towns.
22 How long will you wander,
    unfaithful Daughter Israel?
The Lord will create a new thing on earth—
    the woman will return to[b] the man.”
23 This is what the Lord Almighty, the God of Israel, says: “When I bring them back from captivity,[c]the people in the land of Judah and in its towns will once again use these words: ‘The Lord bless you, you prosperous city, you sacred mountain.’ 24 People will live together in Judah and all its towns—farmers and those who move about with their flocks. 25 I will refresh the weary and satisfy the faint.”
26 At this I awoke and looked around. My sleep had been pleasant to me.
27 “The days are coming,” declares the Lord, “when I will plant the kingdoms of Israel and Judah with the offspring of people and of animals. 28 Just as I watched over them to uproot and tear down, and to overthrow, destroy and bring disaster, so I will watch over them to build and to plant,” declares The Lord. 29 “In those days people will no longer say,
‘The parents have eaten sour grapes,
    and the children’s teeth are set on edge.’
30 Instead, everyone will die for their own sin; whoever eats sour grapes—their own teeth will be set on edge.
31 “The days are coming,” 
declares the Lord,

Ok when are the days coming? when they come is when Everyone will die for their own sin.


    “when I will make a new covenant
with the people of Israel
    and with the people of Judah.

So the days are The New Covenant, so under The New Covenant people will have to pay for their own sin, this dismisses The Penal Substitution Atonement, as if that Atonement Theory was valid, people can die for others sins under The New Covenant, however under The New Covenant, The one Jesus Christ established as said here in Jeremiah, no one will pay for anothers sin.

32 It will not be like the covenant
    I made with their ancestors
when I took them by the hand
    to lead them out of Egypt,
because they broke my covenant,
    though I was a husband to[d] them,[e]
declares the Lord.
33 “This is the covenant I will make with the people of Israel
    after that time,” declares the Lord.
“I will put my law in their minds
    and write it on their hearts.
I will be their God,
    and they will be my people.
34 No longer will they teach their neighbor,
    or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’

I assume no more supervision of The Law but supervision of God as Paul put it in, Galatians 3:25

because they will all know me,
    from the least of them to the greatest,”
declares the Lord.
“For I will forgive their wickedness
    and will remember their sins no more.” - Jesus Christ is God.
35 This is what the Lord says,
he who appoints the sun
    to shine by day,
who decrees the moon and stars
    to shine by night,
who stirs up the sea
    so that its waves roar
    the Lord Almighty is his name:
36 “Only if these decrees vanish from my sight,”
    declares the Lord,
“will Israel ever cease
    being a nation before me.”
37 This is what the Lord says:
“Only if the heavens above can be measured
    and the foundations of the earth below be searched out
will I reject all the descendants of Israel
    because of all they have done,”
declares the Lord.
38 “The days are coming,” declares the Lord, “when this city will be rebuilt for me from the Tower of Hananel to the Corner Gate. 39 The measuring line will stretch from there straight to the hill of Gareb and then turn to Goah. 40 The whole valley where dead bodies and ashes are thrown, and all the terraces out to the Kidron Valley on the east as far as the corner of the Horse Gate, will be holy to the Lord. The city will never again be uprooted or demolished.”



Goodbye to the un-Biblical Penal Substitution Atonement because under The New Covenant it's not allowed.

Tuesday, January 1, 2013

Refuting Tektonics - The Doctrine of the Atonement: Explanation and Defense

First of all Happy New Years 2013!, May this year be Greater than last year, 2012 was my first year  as a Born Again Christian, The Greatest year of my life, Thus far... Remember I have an eternity, it gets better and better, now,

Tektonics can be a very good Christian Defending website for us Christians when not legalistic, however some things it gets very wrong, for example J.P. Holdings un-Biblical view of atonement(aka The Blasphemous, Anti and Un-Biblical Penal Substitution)


The article from Tektonics entitled, The Doctrine of the Atonement: Explanation and Defense(http://www.tektonics.org/af/atonedefense.html ), will be refuted, lets get to it,


Tektonic in White, my rebuttal in blue.


"1. God is in the position of highest authority, of the highest good, and is therefore a being of the highest personal honor."


Agreed. This is a fact.


"2. All sin and evil are therefore an insult to the honor of God, a disregard of His rule and authority and an honor offense."


Agreed. This is a fact.


"3. Any who commit sin/evil, therefore, are degrading God's honor and status. Because this honor rightly belongs to God, it must be restored.

It should be noted here that some may object that it is impossible to take away honor from God. This argument fails because ancient people recognized two types of honor: Acquired honor and what we might call inherent honor.
The second type of honor is honor due someone because of what they were by nature -- their family associations, for example. This type of honor is associated with God's nature and indeed can't be taken away.
However, acquired honor is a different matter. It has to do with one's deeds and authority. This kind of honor, even if it belongs to God, can indeed be taken away, because at its core is what others (including us) think of God."

Maybe.

"4. God's proper response to disobedience, which dishonors Him, is to require the shaming and punishment of those who degrade His honor."

Agreed, but before we go on lets not forget Forgiveness is the taking away of the shame and punishment; the debt, by repentance, as repentance restores God's Honor.

"5. Jesus Christ underwent the crucifixion, a "status degradation ritual," in our place. In other words, he experienced the shame that was rightly owed to us. Crucifixion was the most shameful death in the NT world."


Disagree, I agree yes Jesus Christ took the most unjust and shameful death, He died for not just doing anything wrong, because He was without sin, but for doing Perfectly Good because He Is God and brought peace beyond comprehension. however He didn't die in our place for several reasons,

1, Bible condemns one paying for another's sin

Jeremiah 31:30 - 30 Instead, everyone will die for their own sin; whoever eats sour grapes—their own teeth will be set on edge.


One cannot die or take the punishment for another's sin(s)

2, it is unjust and immoral to put the punishment of a crime on someone who didn't commit it, nonetheless on someone who is innocent, nonetheless someone who never committed a sin. no where in any society can only justly take the punishment for another's sin, the equalivent would be this, 

Person A murders someone, Person B is accused and condemned in court as the murderer despite not having committed the crime. Person B is unjustly killed for a murder he did not commit, while Person A, the murderer is homefree. that is penal substitution. added to The Fact that The Father loves His Son Jesus Christ, no way would this go down and no where is this false doctrine of penal substitution in The Bible.

now in real life by The Holy Spirit's influence on our conscience, if we found out that the wrong guy was punished we would be outraged and filled with wrath, it is unjust.

3, Penal substitution just isn't The True Biblical Doctrine. Catholic Nick refutes Penal Substitution well, Check out his blog: http://catholicnick.blogspot.com/

Therefore Refuted, lets continue.

"6. As a corollary, one who accepts the payment offered by Jesus ought, sensibly, to be aware of this price that has been paid and respond accordingly. One who does not respond accordingly is not appreciative of the paid price and may not truly have accepted the gift."

See this has caused me sleepless nights and unease spiking my OCD, lets examine,


"one who accepts the payment offered by Jesus"

Where in The Bible does God(The Father, Jesus Christ, and The Holy Spirit), The Apostles, Paul, John The Baptist or Old Testament Prophets say that you must accept or that there would be a payment offering for sin?

The Bible says Repent, Ask for Forgiveness, Love God, Turn from sin, Believe, etc, nowhere does it say to make a contraction agreement with God, The Bible/Christianity is Moral, not legalistics, Legalism is not Biblical, therefore not acceptable in society, one does not accept a payment with God, but they repent, that's what Jesus Christ was telling us.

 "to be aware of this price that has been paid and respond accordingly. One who does not respond accordingly is not appreciative of the paid price and may not truly have accepted the gift."

How does one respond accordingly? in what specific method would this be done? One must Believe and Repent, not make some contractal agreement with God(The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit)

"7. In the process of the crucifixion, then, Jesus acts as a broker for those who wish to enter into a covenant with God. Those who enter that covenant are expected to serve within that covenant if they have indeed made a commitment."

Again with this legalism, Jesus Christ doesn't act as a broker, He's our Savior, not our broker. what Jesus Christ does do is Preach The Kingdom of Heaven, that one must repent of sin and Accept Him in their hearts to receive The Holy Spirit, to come to The Father which brings us fully to The Trinity and allows us in The Narrow Gate of Heaven.


"Similarly, God cannot change His nature so that sin can remain in His presence, and this has nothing to do with power or lack thereof.
It is not that God is incapable, it is that we are incapable."

Exactly however to say that the sin, Must be paid for is false, God takes away The Debt of sin once that sinner is truly repentant/sorry for their sin(s), if one is not repentant towards The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit then they have The Wrath remain, and they are subjected to Hell(Annihilation, The Grave)



Now it gets good,

"If a convicted serial murder/rapist plead guilty to multiple counts of murder and rape, would we allow his law-abiding mother to volunteer to step in and serve his prison time (or be executed) in his stead and allow the murder/rapist to be turned back onto the streets?
Here's where we get into the issue I alluded to earlier re the purpose of criminal justice. Let's go over these one at a time, using the case provided above.
  1. Punishment. The criminal above would get a prison sentence, but prison sentences don't often do a lot in this regard. A number of justice experts feel that restitution would be a better way, and indeed, that is the basic principle laid down in the OT law. In this case, restitution might well equal death.Now of course any person could pay the debt if restitution were all there was to the matter. Even at the lower tier of justice, things like speeding tickets can be paid for by a benefactor; where is the "satisfaction" in that?
    But in fact there is satisfaction: For if someone paid restitution for you and you could not afford it, then you would be indebted to that person - which leads to the notion of Christian ethical behavior as an obligation of the believer.
  2. Rehab. We assert that God effects rehab through the indwelling of the Spirit (i.e., sanctification); but let's concentrate on our rape case. Because of the way our justice system is structured, we might have the rapist go through counseling, therapy, etc. - which is one reason why the substitute of the mother would indeed be ludicrous for us, as things stand. We tie punishment in with rehab to such an extent that letting the mother volunteer to pay the price does not make sense.                                     

  3. Thing is the mother cannot pay for what she did not do, rehab or not the murder pays for his crime.

    However, if the payment of the mother assured that rehab would occur, then we could argue that her substitution is acceptable.

    Actually not, because the mother didn't do anything, it is not her crime, either the rapist is forgiven or simply pays the debt, no can take his place, that is unjust.

    This is indeed the problem with our totally-human analogy: Our judges (even the most politically "liberal" among them with the greatest faith in human nature) cannot guarantee that the payment of the price of guilt thereafter results in rehabilitation.

    Punishment is not for rehabilitation but payback for the crime you committed.


    But God can, and promises "ultimate" rehabilitation with the gift of the resurrection body (1 Cor. 15) for which the Holy Spirit is a deposit.

    Again with the Un-Biblical legalism.. there isn't a deposit, But a Gift, The Holy Spirit is God, The Greatest Gift one could get, not some deposit.

     In the meantime, if we truly accept God's gift of grace, we ought to act like we do.
  4. Protection. Much the same here as with #2. The indwelling Spirit's changes in us mean that others are protected from being hurt by our future misbehavior (as there will be none). However, it might be added that should be end up misbehaving, it will result in a loss of rewards in heaven.Put another way, the person who sins seriously in Christ, as I like to say, will end up scrubbing toilets in the New Jerusalem.

    Or they will just not be going to Heaven, as if someone who sins seriously, isn't one who tries, if they are repentant they don't seriously sin(rape, murder, drug abuse, constant violence, unwillingness to forgive, etc), not saying habitual repentant sinners won't go to Heaven, as we all sin, saying serious sinners, they are most likely not repentant, true repentance with The Holy Spirit stops sin.(nonstop unrepentant hypocrisy, murder, rape, etc).
The irony here is that Jesus, in what he taught throughout his ministry -- not in an "atonement," but in a consistent message of universal compassion -- provided the means for overcoming sin..

"Jesus never taught this doctrine.
Not so; Jesus taught it at the Last Supper, when he spoke of the bread and wine being his body and blood, and of dying for many."



Actually not x2, notice the fallacy? Jesus Christ says He will die For many, which can mean anything, He didn't say He will die in replacement of many, this shows you have penal in your mind when reading and analyzing The Scripture.



"That said: It would be correct to say that Jesus does not expound upon the notion of atonement to any explicit extent in the records of his ministry until the Last Supper. "

As proven above Jesus Christ does say penal substitution, therefore a He never says anything in His entire earthly life about penal substitution, He died as a ransom for many, He died For our sins, never does Jesus Christ say He took our punishment.

"His central message, though, is that the Kingdom of God is at hand. We may relate this to the post-resurrection message of Paul, and the account of the Last Supper, by means of a simple before-after dichotomy."


"Why can God forgive after being crucified but not before?
Actually, it is held that those chronologically before the Crucifixion, like Abraham, could "look forward in faith" to the time of the Crucifixion. (See for example Job 19:25.)"

Please do not lie, Jesus Christ(God) forgave sins Multiple times before the crucifixion, He didn't say you will be forgiven He says you are forgiven,




John 8 

“Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?”
11 “No one, sir,” she said.
Then neither do I condemn you,” Jesus declared. “Go now and leave your life of sin.”




Matthew 9:2


Some men brought to him a paralyzed man, lying on a mat. When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the man, Take heart, son; your sins are forgiven.”

Mark 2:5


When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralyzed man, Son, your sins are forgiven.



Luke 5:20


20 When Jesus saw their faith, he said, Friend, your sins are forgiven.”



Luke 7:47-50

47 Therefore, I tell you, her many sins have been forgiven—as her great love has shown. But whoever has been forgiven little loves little.”
48 Then Jesus said to her, Your sins are forgiven.”
49 The other guests began to say among themselves, “Who is this who even forgives sins?”
50 Jesus said to the woman, Your faith has saved you; go in peace.”


To those that say God cannot forgive without punishment, come on.. That is Clearly Un-Biblical and Anti-Biblical, Jesus Christ didn't say look forward to it or you will have your sins forgiven, or they need to be paid for, He says to the person who repents, you are forgiven, your sins have Been forgiven, your sins are forgiven. saying otherwise would be trying to imply that He lied, and Obviously Jesus Christ is The Truth, The Truth cannot lie, Jesus Christ cannot lie, He really forgave sins before crucifixion.


as for 

Job 19:25


I know that my redeemer[a] lives,
    and that in the end he will stand on the earth.

Where does that say sins cannot be forgiven before crucifixion, Job just says he looks forward to His redeemer(Jesus Christ, aka God) who will stand on the earth.



"Matt. 7:21 shows that the idea of salvation by profession of acceptance is blasphemous.

Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

How is this read as meaning that "salvation by profession of acceptance" is a blasphemy? Indeed, it fits in with the idea that profession must be followed by evidence to be validated: Not everyone...which means that there are those who will profess, but only those who have backed it up with evidence of good works (to wit: those who have truly believed) will enter the kingdom of heaven."



Therefore penal is false as penal can Allow sin to be constant yet forgiven by an unrepentant contractual agreement.





"Finally, let us add here that the evidence indicates that Paul was not the originator of the idea of Jesus dying for sins. Paul makes statements in this regard that are clearly formulaic in nature and therefore obviously derived from his predecessors at the Jerusalem church (1 Cor. 15:3, Gal. 1:4, Rom. 4:25, etc.). Furthermore, in agreement with Jesus, Paul cites love as the controlling principle in ethics (see 1 Cor. 8 and 13; 1 Thess. 4:9)."



1 Cor. 15:3 - For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance[a]: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures,


Galatians 1:4 -


who gave himself for our sins to rescue us from the present evil age, according to the will of our God and Father,


Died For our sins, again no penal mentioned, penal would have a case if it said took the penalty of our sins or took our replacement, it just says died for our sins.

Romans 4:25



25 He who was delivered over because of our transgressions, and was raised because of our justification.


Where is penal even implied?


"Why require a substitute anyway? Why can't God just forgive sin?
On that, see Glenn Miller's essay here. Malina and Rohrbaugh's Social Science commentary notes that in the ancient world, sin was "a breach of interpersonal relations" that invoked a debt upon the sinner to the "sinnee". Thus also in the substitution model of the doctrine of the atonement: Sin incurs a debt upon us to God that Jesus' blood forgives. In addition, we should not wrongly define "forgiveness" in modern terms, thus:


And the debt was taken off when one is Repentant towards Jesus Christ. Read Parable of Unforgiving Servant, that refutes penal substitution.

How does the substitution model reflect forgiveness, since God exacts a penalty anyway, even if from Jesus?
This objection misunderstands what "forgiveness" is, Biblically. As Malina and Rohrbaugh put it, "forgiveness by God meant being divinely restored to one's position and therefore being freed from fear of loss at the hands of God." How this was done is not part of the definition, which means "exacting all that is in justice due" is not excluded as a method, whether the person itself somehow pays it, or someone else does (as Jesus does in the substitution model).
It also does not mean that no one pays anything at all. It may be claimed, for example, that in passages like Luke 7:41-2 show true forgiveness, because the debtors were forgiven their debts and paid nothing. But this neglects the dimension of patronage that governed the ancient world: Though the monetary debts were erased, the debtors would continue to serve the creditor and would be expected to return the favor.
"Forgiveness" means that they were returned to a former status that they had before they incurred the debt -- not that they never gave back something in return. That would never make sense in a collectivist society.

Nope, Jesus Christ(God) offers forgiveness, restores one to prior position and makes Righteous those who are Repentant to Him.




In conclusion, Doctrines such as the one J.P. Holdings present is entirely man made, not Biblical and I challenge him to refute me because Penal is not only Un-Biblical and Anti-Biblical but immoral. people like Hitler are not in Heaven because they didn't truly repent, Hitler cowardly committed suicide to escape, 


Bonus that I had to refute, From J.P. Holdings The Crucifixion, the Nature of Hell, and Shame


http://www.tektonics.org/uz/2muchshame.html


"A reader asked this question: I gathered from your response to [another Skeptic] that the Jeffery Dahmer, who apparently repented before that unfortunate encounter with a mop handle, would be in the “nosebleed section” in heaven. Why would that be if Christ suffered the shame for everyone who is saved?

I think the answer here relates to the concept of rewards in heaven as opposed to salvation. The rewards will be rewards of honor; obviously someone like Dahmer isn't going to have a lot of rewards, and nor would an Adolf Hitler who repented on his deathbed. So yes, to say they will be in the "nosebleed section" of heaven would be accurate."



hitler was a coward who committed suicide as an escape(He probably thought it as a last resort) and dahmer was a sociopath incapable of repenting, no matter who tries to tell you otherwise, dahmer a known sociopath could not Truly repent, that is an impossibility.



We must take warning to Legalistic false teachings that Jesus Christ warned us about, penal substitution is one of them, as it is immoral  and illogical.




Matthew 7:15-23

New International Version (NIV)

True and False Prophets

15 “Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16 By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thorn bushes, or figs from thistles? 17 Likewise, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.

True and False Disciples

21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’


If tektonics teaches truth they will be able to refute me on penal substitution, this is often a problem when dealing with "atheist"'s as they believe because the Church teaches them and since it's so mainstream that Penal is held as true and they use that against The Bible, which is wrong.

Next I will, because Inspired by The Holy Spirit and acts420 prove that Pre-martial sex is not a sin. 


Happy New Years 2013! I except a reply from tektonics